tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post3062711203918030730..comments2024-03-18T06:41:03.841-04:00Comments on Facts & other stubborn things: Gene Callahan is a wise man...Evanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-68800433081320434172011-05-05T13:37:06.635-04:002011-05-05T13:37:06.635-04:00Jan Helfeld, in one of his bad interviews*, was as...Jan Helfeld, in one of his bad interviews*, was asking Bernie Sanders if his belief in "government for people by people" could be taken to its logical end conclusion. Now, he messed the whole thing up by constantly badgering him with "Do you believe in initiating force?" questions, that only annoyed Sanders.<br /><br />It would have been far simpler for him to argue straight away that Sanders can't both support voluntary government AND implementation of social arrangements binding upon all.<br /><br />See, this confuses me too. You can try to rebut propertarians by saying that democratic decisions reflect all people's interests. Or you can try to say that democratic decisions reflect a less dangerous form of coercion.<br /><br />But you can't have it both ways.<br /><br />So by accepting that liberal democracy is a form of "minimum coercion", have you then agreed that democracy has nothing to do with voluntary government "by people and for people"?<br /><br />*Actually, they are all miserably bad failures at interviews.Prateek Sanjaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-36472123843626727072011-05-05T11:30:47.487-04:002011-05-05T11:30:47.487-04:00I do think this starts to get formulaic - I've...I do think this starts to get formulaic - I've almost put it into an optimization problem framework.<br /><br />That's not entirely a bad way to look at it, but it has gotten formulaic, and yes I'm suspicious of formulaic routes to political philosophy!<br /><br />But as for the word "coercion" itself, I'm not all that bothered. I use "coercion" where a lot of libertarians use "aggression", and I try to get past this tendency to narrowly define "aggression", fail to see that that definition is not convincing to others (ie - the perceived aggressor often sees the defense as the aggression). We can't abandon all terminology just because we're concerned about its abuse by some!<br /><br />I've registered my complaints iwth the misuse of words like "theft". If they want to challenge my understanding of coercion, they are welcome to :)<br /><br />I am thinking of it in the sense of Foucault, who talked about being caught in "the fine meshes of the web of power".Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-28155967727706104792011-05-05T11:09:55.415-04:002011-05-05T11:09:55.415-04:00Daniel, this discussion involves an interesting tr...Daniel, this discussion involves an interesting transformation.<br /><br />I thought you were the kind to not take seriously those people who use rhetorical words like "theft" and "coercion" in their discussion.<br /><br />But now you have accepted your opponent's terminology and started to speak in terms of the "coercion" terminology they have established.<br /><br />Have you considered whether spending too much time talking to libertarians is putting some libertarian mutations into your thought? ;)Prateek Sanjaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-70831839316199271352011-05-05T10:03:50.395-04:002011-05-05T10:03:50.395-04:00Enforcement does not drop out of the sky, and the ...Enforcement does not drop out of the sky, and the rights themselves don't either.<br /><br />We could probably get somewhere talking about a "right to self" as axiomatic and perhaps a "natural right", but that's a fairly vague one, you cannot derive other rights clearly from it, and all other rights we think of when we talk about "property rights" are invented by human beings.<br /><br />Nothing about the social order drops out of the sky. It may be in our genes. It may be reasonably regarded common sense. But it is still artificial.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-88164184533186652372011-05-05T10:01:17.305-04:002011-05-05T10:01:17.305-04:00"I am assume that when you say that, you are ..."I am assume that when you say that, you are not taking enforcement of property as a given?"<br /><br />Well, of course it is not a given! Work must be done to enforce property rights -- that enforcement does not drop out of the sky.gcallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-68401513266837769582011-05-05T06:16:01.902-04:002011-05-05T06:16:01.902-04:00Gary - thanks. It's always good to see liberta...Gary - thanks. It's always good to see libertarians supporting liberty! What's been especially depressing about this is that it's happening at UVA, which here we perceive to be a sort of standard bearer for academic freedom inquiry in an enlightened society (when it was founded all the other schools were essentially royalist training camps, after all!).<br /><br />Anonymous - thanks - this is great discussion. Mattheus has a post up to. I may share these later today.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-12284367340198207052011-05-04T20:43:34.502-04:002011-05-04T20:43:34.502-04:00http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/24414/418583.a...http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/24414/418583.aspx#418583<br /><br />Might generate some interesting discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-46356003007185556342011-05-04T18:39:13.626-04:002011-05-04T18:39:13.626-04:00Daniel, something you should read (I know, it is f...Daniel, something you should read (I know, it is from a libertarian publication and all that): http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/04/a-grandstanding-attorney-generGary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-20177009539083308382011-05-04T16:22:57.253-04:002011-05-04T16:22:57.253-04:00I should have added the "Four Loko Panic"...I should have added the "Four Loko Panic" as another departure.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-13278871743986913932011-05-04T16:01:31.116-04:002011-05-04T16:01:31.116-04:00I know I said that Gary. Where did I say that real...I know I said <i>that</i> Gary. Where did I say that real supporters of liberty have to agree with me?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-23673806808723487592011-05-04T15:51:57.095-04:002011-05-04T15:51:57.095-04:00And that is of course only a very small partial li...And that is of course only a very small partial list of the so-called "departures."Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-73688917292259225532011-05-04T15:48:37.813-04:002011-05-04T15:48:37.813-04:00I already quoted you.
"We ought to be quite ...I already quoted you.<br /><br />"We ought to be quite comfortable with the idea that real supporters of liberty are going to have to advocate a departure from taht [sic] default on many occasions."<br /><br />In light of this we ought to consider how many departures we see on a daily basis in the U.S. already.<br /><br />* the drug war<br />* the national security state<br />* occupational licensing<br />* eminent domain turned into "blight control" and now simply for the purpose of increasing the state's bottom line<br /><br />The quest for "distributive justice" (as well as that of "deviance control") is always anti-thetical to liberty, and corrodes any progress towards such made in the past.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-61919449409262811012011-05-04T15:33:32.416-04:002011-05-04T15:33:32.416-04:00Gary, if that's the case quote me. This seems ...Gary, if that's the case quote me. This seems to be the sensible way out of this.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-80264853024703076522011-05-04T15:31:49.483-04:002011-05-04T15:31:49.483-04:00Although even though I never said what you accused...Although even though I never said what you accused me of..."<br /><br />Looks like to me you did. Pretty soon we'll be into "false consciousness" territory I am sure.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-32435225616348898682011-05-04T14:09:13.889-04:002011-05-04T14:09:13.889-04:00Correction: Character flaws are things people cho...Correction: Character flaws are things people choose to do because they want to. Unless you're suggesting he is mentally ill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-46870268441993896432011-05-04T13:45:39.717-04:002011-05-04T13:45:39.717-04:00DK,
"but perhaps I was too sensitive on this...DK,<br /><br />"but perhaps I was too sensitive on this count."<br /><br />Perhaps.<br /><br />I'm not questioning your integrity in this case. I'm agreeing with you.<br /><br />"but you're not someone I consider reasonable either."<br /><br />Oh of course you do. You'd love talking to me in person. ;)<br /><br />But yes, sometimes...or often...I do see you making too much of an effort to disagree in a pedantic way. It's not a character flaw. It's just what you choose to do because you want to.John Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887847629803262764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-87117337717080195922011-05-04T13:43:28.154-04:002011-05-04T13:43:28.154-04:00"...or move away."
Much harder to do wi..."...or move away."<br /><br />Much harder to do with a large, centralized government that has jurisdiction from sea-to-shining-sea, isn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-74664565664874112482011-05-04T13:36:00.830-04:002011-05-04T13:36:00.830-04:00John V -
"You win ???" came across as di...John V -<br />"<i>You win ???</i>" came across as dismissive/incredulous, which is not atypical for you - but perhaps I was too sensitive on this count.<br /><br />But you make a habit of questioning my integrity and even handedness, simply because I find less that is commendable in Don or Russ's posts than I do in Krugman or DeLong's. You take a disagreement between us that could be fodder for a productive discussion and repeatedly insist that it's a character flaw on my part. You're not "foul" as you say - but you're not someone I consider reasonable either.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-17982348668134035272011-05-04T13:35:33.136-04:002011-05-04T13:35:33.136-04:00Gene,
How is a certain level of coercion...or lac...Gene,<br /><br />How is a certain level of coercion...or lack thereof going to change anything about muggers?<br /><br />I am assume that when you say that, you are not taking enforcement of property as a given?John Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887847629803262764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-86325552420686393482011-05-04T13:24:45.764-04:002011-05-04T13:24:45.764-04:00BTW, DK,
I'm always reasonable. And I always ...BTW, DK,<br /><br />I'm always reasonable. And I always answer directly and frankly to your posts. I don't curse or use foul language. More than not, my most and direct posts with sincere questions are the one's left hanging with no response.John Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887847629803262764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-17299101221036751052011-05-04T13:21:34.196-04:002011-05-04T13:21:34.196-04:00DK,
You seem insulted for no reason. I didn't...DK,<br /><br />You seem insulted for no reason. I didn't see my answer as hostile. I'm simply saying that if that's the shoe we are using then I'll gladly wear.<br /><br />That's not unlike what Gene's point was that you agreed with, isn't it?John Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887847629803262764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-31654130688141558692011-05-04T12:46:58.880-04:002011-05-04T12:46:58.880-04:00Mattheus: "The ideal then is no coercion, not...Mattheus: "The ideal then is no coercion, not minimum coercion."<br /><br />That is true only in the same sense that "Gee, would it be ideal if we didn't have to breathe air and we could live underwater" is true. Yes, it's a nice fantasy. In the real world, the ideal amount of coercion is certainly not none: it is the amount necessary to maintain a orderly, decent social life. Daniel is right about minimizing coercion in the sense that we certainly don't want MORE than is necessary, e.g., police brutalizing random drivers. But we also don't want LESS than is necessary, e.g., so that muggers feel free to operate where they will.gcallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-51605193823692689012011-05-04T12:24:38.987-04:002011-05-04T12:24:38.987-04:00John V -
To use your words, its in the definition ...John V -<br />To use your words, its in the definition of "their own business" that the coercion inevitably lies.<br /><br />Look, I have trouble getting you to show some basic respect for me and have a reasonable exchange with me at Cafe Hayek. This particular topic seems like its one where that will be even harder. Click the "property" tag line on the post and you'll see several other things I've written that may clarify.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-15884487899333168662011-05-04T12:17:51.634-04:002011-05-04T12:17:51.634-04:00OK, DK.
If forcing everyone to mind their own bus...OK, DK.<br /><br />If forcing everyone to mind their own business is coercive...then I'm a coercive megalomaniac. <br /><br />You win. <br /><br />???John Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887847629803262764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-87989378726843113182011-05-04T11:07:38.004-04:002011-05-04T11:07:38.004-04:00Daniel - Sowell's older stuff is very much wor...Daniel - Sowell's older stuff is very much worth reading. "Knowledge and Decisions" and "A Conflict of Visions" are very insightful, and his "Marxism: Philosophy and Economics" is only equalled by Kolkowski's "Main Currents of Marxism" in my opinion. But much of Sowell's recent work - particularly his columns - make me cringe more often than anything else.Kevinnoreply@blogger.com