tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post2440438975985792042..comments2024-03-27T03:00:27.024-04:00Comments on Facts & other stubborn things: On Hayekian Economics and the Economics of HayekEvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-80699843193019590962011-05-02T06:50:56.238-04:002011-05-02T06:50:56.238-04:00Greg - if you tell me how to interpret what you wr...Greg - if you tell me how to interpret what you wrote, then I'm happy to revise that update. You wrote: <i>"Allan Meltzer makes a strong case for seeing Keynes belief in socializing all investment at the bedrock of his economics — which would directly implicate Hayek’s core argument against Lange and Lerner on collectivist economic planning."</i><br /><br />You seem to think that Keynes's socialization of investment was in some way related to Lange and Lerner's case for market socialism. I don't see how, but you seem to make the point. Tell me how I'm supposed to read this, Greg.<br /><br />You can't say it's a misreading and then just neglect to explain what I misread.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-6524809019770603352011-05-02T02:01:14.053-04:002011-05-02T02:01:14.053-04:00Leijonhufvud's book was in large part an attem...Leijonhufvud's book was in large part an attempt to make sense of Keynes while taking Hayek -- i.e. markets -- seriously.<br /><br />There is no parallel that is cognitive compelling the other way. Keynes didn't understand markets.<br /><br />You write,<br /><br />"I think someone oughta write a book to match Leijonhufvud's book, and title it On Hayekian Economics and the Economics of Hayek."Greg Ransomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-45207625746862978362011-05-02T01:58:14.305-04:002011-05-02T01:58:14.305-04:00Daniel, this is a bad misreading of what I said.
...Daniel, this is a bad misreading of what I said.<br /><br />Just a terrible misreading.<br /><br /><br />You write,<br /><br />"And Steve - you can add Greg Ransom to the list of people who think that Keynes advocated what amounted to the same thing Lange and Lerner were saying to Hayek on "collectivist economic planning". Lange and Lerner do advocate "central planning", and Greg thinks Keynes is on par with them. He's not taking it as "poetic license"."Greg Ransomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-32740882845214772402011-05-01T23:36:49.416-04:002011-05-01T23:36:49.416-04:00Looks like you are not ready yet. You'll know ...Looks like you are not ready yet. You'll know when you are ready.Marty Steinbergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-5862895841651680332011-05-01T23:14:15.713-04:002011-05-01T23:14:15.713-04:00Say what, exactly? Don't beat around the bush....Say what, exactly? Don't beat around the bush.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-16334291806433945182011-05-01T22:42:12.407-04:002011-05-01T22:42:12.407-04:00Just come out of the closet and admit it Daniel. Y...Just come out of the closet and admit it Daniel. You can do it. You won't feel ashamed after that. You will only be part of the pointless socialist pain caucus and proud of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-3429623770319612362011-05-01T22:36:35.549-04:002011-05-01T22:36:35.549-04:00Anonymous - I'm perfectly "able to bear i...Anonymous - I'm perfectly "able to bear it". I'll just tell you that your wrong.<br /><br />What would you prefer I do to "bear it"? Sit quietly and agree with you? Come on now - don't tell me I "can't bear" it because I am willing to register a disagreement. That makes no sense.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17192667997950934790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-32002633845990198482011-05-01T22:25:26.519-04:002011-05-01T22:25:26.519-04:00If you are not able to bear the fact that people t...If you are not able to bear the fact that people think your policy positions will lead to painful socialism then you need to get out of the dialogue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-61650297459560152372011-05-01T22:19:40.992-04:002011-05-01T22:19:40.992-04:00"I'm "limp wristed and in a tizzy&qu..."I'm "limp wristed and in a tizzy" because I disagree with John and Russ? Grow up." <br /><br />And here's the response of a person who didn't consider what I said in the context of Steve's post and yours on Murphy's blog.<br /><br />"What's "limp wristed" about that?"<br /><br />I dunno strawman?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-65717141163488670722011-05-01T21:59:11.037-04:002011-05-01T21:59:11.037-04:00Anonymous -
I'm "limp wristed and in a t...Anonymous - <br />I'm "limp wristed and in a tizzy" because I disagree with John and Russ? Grow up. If I think he's wrong I'm going to say he's wrong. What's "limp wristed" about that? If you think expressing disagreement is limp-wristed, you shouldn't be visiting blogs.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-7920536807019793892011-05-01T21:57:13.958-04:002011-05-01T21:57:13.958-04:00John Papola -
If you are not able to bear the fact...John Papola -<br />If you are not able to bear the fact that people think your policy positions will cause pointless pain at a painful time like this - and because of that your policy positions will be vocally opposed - then you need to get out of the dialogue.<br /><br />People who call for austerity now are leading us to a path of pointless pain, and many of them are doing it because they're working off of half-baked economics.<br /><br />If you can't deal with it - don't jump into the discussion.<br /><br />That's very different from saying "X doesn't care about the unemployed". I've called DeLong out for saying that about Hayek. He doesn't say it all the time. He usually says something quite appropriate and legitimate: "you're wrong". <br /><br />Needless to say, I'm not going to take your word on what Krugman or DeLong think either. I think I have a much better sense of their position on things than you do, or than Russ does for that matter.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-84665116087854175162011-05-01T21:50:50.697-04:002011-05-01T21:50:50.697-04:00Mattheus -
Don't be so concerned. I listed Whi...Mattheus -<br />Don't be so concerned. I listed White and Horwitz and I said there were others. The point is a lot of people who identify as Hayekians are strongly against monetary stimulus. If White's Hayek is true, then a lot of this "Hayekian economics" is different from the "economics of Hayek". That's all I'm saying. Not that every single person who calls himself a Hayekian is different from what White says Hayek said.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-84329175817049068012011-05-01T18:41:01.537-04:002011-05-01T18:41:01.537-04:00"but you guys do it too" deserves a &quo..."but you guys do it too" deserves a "score one"<br /><br />No, but I do think it's worth pointing out that you 'sympathize' with a man who often performs smear jobs on his opponents. Yet, you get all limp-wristed in a tizzy when finding yourself on the receiving end of verbal abuse. <br /><br />"Cue people with a cut and paste history of DeLong’s crimes against humanity – I know I know. Probably he cut one one day where someone demonstrated a factual error, when he actually cut it for some other statement in the comment."<br /><br />http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2011/04/conspiracy-theory-or-fact.html#commentsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-76220455247999855922011-05-01T18:17:10.689-04:002011-05-01T18:17:10.689-04:00John Papola,
+1John Papola,<br /><br />+1Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-22043505234025416192011-05-01T18:02:53.118-04:002011-05-01T18:02:53.118-04:00Oh… and one more thing. It is pretty clear that th...Oh… and one more thing. It is pretty clear that the NUMBER ONE attack on those of us who don’t believe in Keynesian policies by many keynesians and keynesian sympathizers is… to call us members of the “pointless pain caucus”. I happen to love Brad DeLong, because to the extent that I think he is wrong, he’s brilliant at totally discrediting himself through a vitriolic tone and embarrassing policy of comments censorship and micromanagement. If he want to slander me on his blog, lovely. But it should be understood that our “Keynes” is partly made up of Brad DeLong and Paul Krugman. That’s the “poetic license”. He’s Keynes the Keynesian, just as Hayek is Hayek + Higgs and others. It’s not a history lesson, folks. It’s a rap about worldviews and economic reasoning. Keynes and Hayek are both dead. There is nothing on the record from John Maynard Keynes about the Great Recession.John Papolahttp://www.johnpapola.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-8984517567956514322011-05-01T17:57:37.421-04:002011-05-01T17:57:37.421-04:00I left my thoughts regarding our lyric on your oth...I left my thoughts regarding our lyric on your other post “Was Keynes a Central Planner” so check that out.<br /><br />Which Hayekians are these, Daniel? I believe that the libertarians most likely to reference Hayek over Mises or Rothbard and known as such by people who understand these differences are, in fact, Larry White, George Selgin, Steve Horwitz and to a lesser extent Scott Sumner. Probably others too. Maybe my reading list is narrow (not maybe. surely).<br /><br />Those who oppose nominal income stabilization (at a minimum) are generally self-identified to be Rothbardians and many are openly critical of Hayek.<br /><br />Personally, I’m not confident enough in my understanding of monetary economics to strongly assert which approach seems right. I am skeptical of a central bank’s ability to stabilize nominal income or nominal income expectations. The futures market approach pitched by Sumner is interesting but still rests on an error government statistic (NGDP) as its commodity to be traded.<br /><br />My understanding also is that Hayek’s views on monetary policy did change over the course of his life and I do recall reading some passages that expressed skepticism regarding countercyclical monetary policy.<br /><br />Russ is skeptical about our ability to understand the impacts of macro policies in general.John Papolahttp://www.johnpapola.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-48785846168985811142011-05-01T16:57:34.355-04:002011-05-01T16:57:34.355-04:00Daniel,
why is it that the libertarians who are t...Daniel,<br /><br /><i>why is it that the libertarians who are the most consistent with Hayek himself (or White's version of him) are also the libertarians who are least identified with the Austrian school (Sumner, Cowen, etc.). </i><br /><br />I disagree with this totally. Roger Garrison, for instance, is a big Hayekian.<br /><br />You might have meant to ask: Why do some non-Austrian followers of Hayek emphasize <b>these</b> parts of Hayekian philosophy, and the Austrian followers emphasize <b>other</b> parts? It's dishonest to suggest that the "most consistent" Hayekians are not Austrians because 1. It's just not true - Hayek is given a premier position in the Austrian school and any Austrian who doesn't study Hayek is barely an Austrian; 2. There is no consistent "Hayekian" vision at all. He changes throughout his life. We tend to appreciate his work on capital theory, monetary theory, and knowledge problems as they complement and add to the existing body of Austrian economics; the rest of his work not so much. Some of his political philosophy is good too.<br /><br />You said it yourself "It matured, as everyone's thinking does. But there was no stark difference between a young Keynes and an old Keynes."<br /><br />I think it's backwards to suggest that Hayek was a static figure and that the whole Ludwig von Mises Institute and the Austrian school is misinterpreting him. It's more probable that Hayek was a complicated and diverse thinker (focusing on economics in his early life and political theory later in his life) and some people agree with different parts of him.<br /><br />It's not surprising at all to me that Hayek's <i>Constitution of Liberty; Law, Legislation, and Liberty</i>; and, <i>the Fatal Conceit</i> are not sold by the Mises Institute. Unfortunately, Hayek tended to abandon the ideals he had found in his youth for a more gentle form of welfarism.Mattheushttp://www.economicthought.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-387890870303302282011-05-01T16:46:54.912-04:002011-05-01T16:46:54.912-04:00It isn't an issue of "you guys do it too,...It isn't an issue of "you guys do it too," it is an issue of stop bitching about it like it is a big deal, because it ain't. <br /><br />Honestly, the other day you accused me of being like Glenn Beck (since I've never watch his TV show, you may in fact be right); but I just took it in stride.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-46259539698046568942011-05-01T16:36:30.536-04:002011-05-01T16:36:30.536-04:00I don't think "but you guys do it too&quo...I don't think "but you guys do it too" deserves a "score one", Gary and Anonymous.<br /><br />If Steve can find an instance of me accusing him of those things, he's free to bring that to my attention. I can't control Brad DeLong, and I have differed from him on occasion - including defending Hayek.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-59281358701459122562011-05-01T16:34:29.321-04:002011-05-01T16:34:29.321-04:00Steve - and I think I defended YOU against Brad to...Steve - and I think I defended YOU against Brad too, but I'd have to check my archives for that.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-51205691512516854222011-05-01T16:33:39.619-04:002011-05-01T16:33:39.619-04:00Steve -
I've taken Brad DeLong to task for say...Steve -<br />I've taken Brad DeLong to task for saying that sort of thing in the past.<br /><br />But you're right - my first priority has not been to defend Hayek's image in the public eye from Russ and John's somewhat distorted and unfair view of him.<br /><br />I think you can ask any regular commenters on here what my opinion of Hayek is - I never spread the view that he was insensitive or unsympathetic and I wouldn't countenance it in any commenters - if it came up in the comment section here I would dispute it.<br /><br />Ask my commenters - I think they'd agree.dkuehnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10136690886858186981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-28315308029251825152011-05-01T15:57:23.148-04:002011-05-01T15:57:23.148-04:00I also notice that our host here isn't complai...I also notice that our host here isn't complaining about the song's claim (in Keynes's mouth) that Hayek didn't care about the unemployed. Is that any less of a problem than calling Keynes a central planner?Steven Horwitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00470758334242360804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-3110890956771130122011-05-01T14:26:55.373-04:002011-05-01T14:26:55.373-04:00Steven Horwitz,
+1Steven Horwitz,<br /><br />+1Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-37453010131283825862011-05-01T14:16:04.710-04:002011-05-01T14:16:04.710-04:00"And, in fact, not only have I been called a ..."And, in fact, not only have I been called a fascist myself, you might check your new best buddy DeLong's archives for him calling me "an ethics-free Republican hack" and "the stupidest man alive." So spare me your victim complex, we've all been called names before."<br /><br />Score one for Horwitz.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-52448072208730723292011-05-01T12:14:37.211-04:002011-05-01T12:14:37.211-04:00"...many take it literally (Gary Gunnels)...&..."...many take it literally (Gary Gunnels)..."<br /><br />Yeah, literally, within the broad context of what the term means - not in the specific context of a "five year plan." Keynes was an advocate of "dirigsme" in other words; another term for dirigsme is central planning.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.com