tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post2365244143331333080..comments2024-03-27T03:00:27.024-04:00Comments on Facts & other stubborn things: Another way to think about fiscal policy when real interest rates are negativeEvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-88029158169991911172011-08-11T20:46:11.222-04:002011-08-11T20:46:11.222-04:00For the Keynesian question, isn't debt most ex...For the Keynesian question, isn't debt most expensive (in total costs, including opportunity and uncertainty) during downturns?<br /><br />For the second point: simple, if there are moral/legal limits drawn up in the Nozickian contract then interest rates matter naught. One has to conceive of the contracts you're speaking of as having no other clause than the function/payment of government.Nonymoushttp://dictionary.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-3512980687642543322011-08-11T20:03:05.396-04:002011-08-11T20:03:05.396-04:00Why would Keynes argue that government should seek...Why would Keynes argue that government should seek debt when it is most expensive?<br /><br />re: <i>"You seem to be operating from a position that already take unlimited government spending/power as a given."</i><br /><br />And in response to this too - I have no idea where you're getting this.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-35268573842173352372011-08-11T18:29:05.798-04:002011-08-11T18:29:05.798-04:00darnit, quoted the wrong part (I blame the so-call...darnit, quoted the wrong part (I blame the so-called "smartphones). The quote/question I had is why a non-profit government is looking for the cheapest credit possible. If Keynes is right, shouldn't government seek debt when it is most expensive (in rate and opportunity cost)?<br /><br />Sorry for the clumsiness.Nonymoushttp://dictionary.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-50569501788573154842011-08-11T18:25:54.047-04:002011-08-11T18:25:54.047-04:00"Even insofar as Nozick or Lysander Spooner o..."Even insofar as Nozick or Lysander Spooner or others conceive of voluntary private government, it's still not a <i>profit seeking government</i>,"<br /><br />As the kids say these days [citation needed].<br /><br />GG is right that there are/were moral constraints on government, just as there are/were moral constraints on profit seeking.<br /><br />You seem to be operating from a position that already take unlimited government spending/power as a given. With all the failures of the Tea Party (and their specifics on the ceiling are among them), they at least propose, even if in opposition (which is what the Republicans seem to do best) limits.Nonymoushttp://dictionary.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-29354182252537422052011-08-11T10:27:14.341-04:002011-08-11T10:27:14.341-04:00"Experience with humans, particularly modern ..."Experience with humans, particularly modern humans..."<br /><br />Only in strong, centrally governed states. You're talking about a wildly different scenario here and you have to be open to some outcomes that are different than what you would expect in the former.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-64606122237025480252011-08-11T10:25:03.929-04:002011-08-11T10:25:03.929-04:00You have to have a particular capitalist mind-set ...You have to have a particular capitalist mind-set regarding capital markets, for your scenario to work, and for a lot of people that mind-set is just, well, wrong or inferior and should be rejected.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-27331770760620466662011-08-11T10:24:00.761-04:002011-08-11T10:24:00.761-04:00On the margin Gary. Economists think on the margin...On the margin Gary. Economists think on the margin. Experience with humans, particularly modern humans, suggests that very few entities will be operating at the corner solution you're focusing on.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-25652381426741812732011-08-11T10:22:09.046-04:002011-08-11T10:22:09.046-04:00"...the question of financing is obviously go..."...the question of financing is obviously going to shift toward deficit financing if the relative cost of deficit financing falls."<br /><br />Not if the community prohibits deficit financing for religious or other reasons.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-36278730872998941762011-08-11T10:21:00.435-04:002011-08-11T10:21:00.435-04:00If you want to strike "Nozick" from ever...If you want to strike "Nozick" from everything I wrote up there be my guest - it obviously doesn't depend on it.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-7590683262436633022011-08-11T10:19:31.063-04:002011-08-11T10:19:31.063-04:00Sure, but he doesn't call them "private g...Sure, but he doesn't call them "private governments." When you get into "private government" speak you've veered into anarchist talk. He doesn't to my remembrance use the term private government - he talks about voluntary communities, etc. instead - and that was his point, voluntary pluralistic communities within a nightwatchmen state. And to me these voluntary communities need not even be capitalist in orientation (that's the whole point of name litany he engages in - all these kinds of people have very different interests and ideas); they may not even take loans or debt because they find it immoral or some such.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-70849037063624905042011-08-11T10:06:35.283-04:002011-08-11T10:06:35.283-04:00As for your last paragraph - my point is that what...As for your last paragraph - my point is that <i>whatever</i> the goals of such a private government, the question of financing is obviously going to shift toward deficit financing if the relative cost of deficit financing falls. We need not specify the goals of the private government and indeed these goals would be different for different governments. But whatever the goals we'd expect to see substitution.<br /><br />The for profit/not for profit point was that this clear substitution effect would not necessarily dominate <i>if</i> the corporate entity was profit seeking.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-334792727438041632011-08-11T10:03:48.062-04:002011-08-11T10:03:48.062-04:00Gary if you're not understanding the Nozick po...Gary if you're not understanding the Nozick point, please just drop it. The minimal state for Nozick was simply a framework for utopias constituted privately by people and groups of people. I'm really not seeing why you're struggling with this. If you want to strike "Nozick" from everything I wrote up there be my guest - it obviously doesn't depend on it.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-64728056079823324892011-08-11T09:59:54.582-04:002011-08-11T09:59:54.582-04:00Why would you call them private governments exactl...Why would you call them private governments exactly? Sounds you're talking about voluntaryism or mutualism to me. Throwing Nozick into the mix just confuses the heck out of things for no good reason.<br /><br />What sorts of people exactly?<br /><br />And to answer your question, it would depend on the goals come to by mutual consent of the individuals involved. I would imagine that a binary profit/not profit decision-making system doesn't capture what the possible goals of such actually look like.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-81023730715018512482011-08-11T05:39:10.732-04:002011-08-11T05:39:10.732-04:00Gary - Of course he wasn't an anarchist. And I...Gary - Of course he wasn't an anarchist. And I never said he used that term itself. What I'm saying is if we think of voluntary associations of people for mutual benefit - if we think of private governments that are acceptable to these sorts of people - how would such a government behave in response to these interest rates on their bonds?<br /><br />Do you have thoughts on that point - the point of the post?Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-7780491386625011362011-08-10T19:55:01.574-04:002011-08-10T19:55:01.574-04:00I'm somewhat confused by the term "privat...I'm somewhat confused by the term "private government" bootstrapped to Nozick. Nozick wasn't an anarchist; in fact, his most famous book (to non-libertarians) is in part a refutation of anarchism. It isn't a term I ever remember him using any of his books that I've read (Socratic Puzzles and Invariances are the best IMO).Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-26064055959500935012011-08-10T18:35:10.691-04:002011-08-10T18:35:10.691-04:00With regard to your entire first paragraph note ex...With regard to your entire first paragraph note exactly what we're talking about here - a private, voluntary government. You seem to misunderstand the entire thought experiment.<br /><br />I'm saying forget macro-policymaking altogether. What would a private government do if its bonds faced these interest rates. The answer seems obvious.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-54432515686449522802011-08-10T18:10:13.970-04:002011-08-10T18:10:13.970-04:00It's impossible to judge because I disagree wi...It's impossible to judge because I disagree with the premise. No governments are voluntary and asking how they would play the "market game" as a voluntarily funded firm is moot. I mean.. if governments become voluntary, then they can't prohibit other so-called voluntary governments from entering the market to offer their product for the simple reason that consumers would no patronize a firm that forms obvious violent monopolies.<br /><br />At that point, if there are multiple competing governments, then any understanding of practical countercyclical policy is totally destroyed. One government out of four expanding its fiscal policy would have absolutely no effect.<br /><br />Besides, if we're talking about a non-Keynesian government, the appropriate response is to do nothing. Non-Keynesian is generally interchangeable with classical economics.<br /><br />Seems to me that a lot of Keynesian economics, at least at it relates to fiscal and monetary policy, requires the existence of a monopoly on government.Mattheus von Guttenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09404889240800715511noreply@blogger.com