tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post1932489385052260022..comments2024-03-27T03:00:27.024-04:00Comments on Facts & other stubborn things: Pulling my hair out over a few things...Evanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-40867431534637132062011-08-05T09:08:51.854-04:002011-08-05T09:08:51.854-04:00Daniel Kuehn,
You almost quoted the original Jura...Daniel Kuehn,<br /><br />You almost quoted the original Jurassic Park movie. ;)Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-19910075536859731922011-08-05T07:34:23.706-04:002011-08-05T07:34:23.706-04:00Bob -
Just pulling my hair out, yep :)
Sometimes...Bob - <br />Just pulling my hair out, yep :)<br /><br />Sometimes claims are simply normative. You can't tie everything down to something firmer. As for "how would anybody argue with you" - you might ask Gary. He always seems to find a way :)Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-83956174735798346302011-08-04T22:16:32.393-04:002011-08-04T22:16:32.393-04:00Daniel, just FYI, there really isn't anything ...Daniel, just FYI, there really isn't anything you put in this post for one to grapple with. It's not even worthwhile for me to go read Boudreaux's post; all you are saying here is, "He is ignorant and has stated a value judgment with which I disagree."<br /><br />Seriously, re-read your post. How would anybody argue with you? You're not making any claim, besides a normative one.Bob Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001108408649311528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-59182848258421020902011-08-04T17:22:24.682-04:002011-08-04T17:22:24.682-04:00Is Don Boudreaux actually an economist? It seems t...Is Don Boudreaux actually an economist? It seems to me that he is just a drunken and crankly old man who has only the most rudimentary understanding of how the economy works mixed with a very very strong moral stance on government intervention.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00479654709456729629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-10507160964021411142011-08-04T13:33:22.716-04:002011-08-04T13:33:22.716-04:00Prateek,
It isn't a wonder; prohibiting divor...Prateek,<br /><br />It isn't a wonder; prohibiting divorce was a means of exercising social control over the reproductive, etc. capabilities of women. <br /><br />Divorce is a good thing for men and women; it allows them to exit relationships which are having significant negative effects on them.<br /><br />It isn't surprising that the freest, most productive societies that currently exist also allow for relatively easy divorce or that those societies are bastions for gender equality and freedom for women in particular.<br /><br />Oh, and I am in the middle of a divorce; I'm well aware of how difficult a divorce is emotionally, but my future ex-wife isn't my vassal nor is she subordinate to me and in a free society she gets to choose (just like I do) who she wants to be with.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-21704548300098746372011-08-04T13:19:07.372-04:002011-08-04T13:19:07.372-04:00Have you not wondered that divorce has been looked...Have you not wondered that divorce has been looked down upon badly by many cultures across antiquity? Even until quite recently, divorce has been a taboo topic in Eastern Orthodox cultural regions.<br /><br />Both of us can go as far as what the law says, regard marriage as a contract, and end there.<br /><br />But how do families often feel about divorce? It's an emotionally unsettling period for many people - the children, the grandparents, and other dependents.<br /><br />It's not unreasonable to say that severance of one's communal ties and even divorce are acts to be undertaken with great care and thought, if done at all.Prateek Sanjaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-13858440336978164932011-08-04T13:13:17.282-04:002011-08-04T13:13:17.282-04:00Prateek Sanjay,
Given your line of reasoning some...Prateek Sanjay,<br /><br />Given your line of reasoning something like divorce ought to be outlawed, even though of course it is highly beneficial to women. <br /><br />The fact is that people (and conglomerations of people - firms) enter and exit all manner of relationships all the time; why one ought to privilege one set of relationships over the issue here, not whether one should be involved in relationships in some abstract sense. Yeah, humans are social animals - to which my response is, so what - that really doesn't tell me much at all.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-85481209496022592652011-08-04T12:56:41.725-04:002011-08-04T12:56:41.725-04:00Unnatural in that there is no such thing as an ind...Unnatural in that there is no such thing as an individual.<br /><br />Have we ever known a single human being who raised himself on his own from the day he came out of the womb, and managed all by himself without the help of other people?<br /><br />If not, a person who breaks off his attachments from other people is like an aberration going against his own nature. Like the monsters in the Thing, such a person is like a hand that falls off from the body, becomes a spider-esque creature, and takes a life of its own. Indeed, going against your own nature is a very self-defeating thing, akin to a bright child destroying his college future by dropping out and becoming a gigolo.<br /><br />Ultimately, isn't this what capitalism about? The idea that cooperation is superior to all forms of autarky and that working with people proves much better than might makes right.Prateek Sanjaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-18556177728166941432011-08-04T11:45:47.470-04:002011-08-04T11:45:47.470-04:00Prateek Sanjay,
Unnatural in what way? You know,...Prateek Sanjay,<br /><br />Unnatural in what way? You know, in conversations like this, I always feel like Aristotle is just a bit off-stage, coaching some of the participants.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-50364797769706810552011-08-04T11:32:28.277-04:002011-08-04T11:32:28.277-04:00Okay, first of all:
I agree with Evan about the m...Okay, first of all:<br /><br />I agree with Evan about the moral implications of leaving communities behind.<br /><br />If I were doing business in an area, made friends with the people there over many years, got customers who regularly chatted informally with me,.etc - and then one day, I tell the employees, neighbours, and regular customers that I am ditching them and going elsewhere with my money...<br /><br />Then **I** SHOULD feel bad about it. I would have shown myself as an unnatural creature, one who does not define himself by the only close relationships he has but instead severs them the first chance he gets. It's unnatural, because it's a sign that I seem to regard all those people as nothing to me. What can be more contemptible than that? I wouldn't do it myself.<br /><br />On the other hand, I sympathise with managers of major businesses not wanting to do business in depressed areas. It involves dealing with too uncertain an environment.Prateek Sanjaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-49304609972606338842011-08-04T08:41:19.441-04:002011-08-04T08:41:19.441-04:00Evan,
What are the "moral implications"...Evan,<br /><br />What are the "moral implications" exactly? From your POV?<br /><br />The lovely thing about impersonal exchanges in the marketplace is that I really don't need to care about your personal life, etc.<br /><br />So the moral implication of such largely revolves around individual autonomy, privacy, etc.<br /><br />"The local government then tried to give the chains all sorts of incentive to return..."<br /><br />Dumb move. Large corporate entities make their decisions based on other factors - so those sorts of incentives are merely giveaways that do not effect decision making for the most part.<br /><br />As for New Orleans post-Katrina, that's a complicated issue and much of it related to federal and state governments doing dumb things like creating levies for neighborhoods that are difficult to defend from floods when large hurricanes hit. That and keeping the Mississippi from doing what it naturally does - change its location from time to time (which has made New Orleans prone to greater levels of danger when hurricanes do hit). Areas which didn't flood - meaning those areas settled prior to major flood control efforts - are back to 100%.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-2635741191287428282011-08-04T08:20:30.524-04:002011-08-04T08:20:30.524-04:00there is nothing immoral regarding [leaving a comm...<i>there is nothing immoral regarding [leaving a community].</i><br /><br />To say that something has <i>moral implications</i> is not to establish an either/or about whether something is immoral or not.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-8387615892043281562011-08-04T08:15:53.584-04:002011-08-04T08:15:53.584-04:00Anyway, apparently we all ought to be re-reading &...Anyway, apparently we all ought to be re-reading "Hard Times" to get our moral compass in order. ;)Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-79843227265982062032011-08-04T08:10:31.661-04:002011-08-04T08:10:31.661-04:00I'll do a Gary and post a link that folks migh...I'll do a Gary and post a link that folks might be interested in... this is related, though. It's not a big budget documentary or anything, but it's well worth watching. I think everyone should have access to it through normal Hulu (don't know how that works for overseas readers, though).<br /><br /><a href="http://www.hulu.com/watch/199928/independent-america-independent-america---rising-from-ruins?c=News-and-Information%2FDocumentary-and-Biography" rel="nofollow">Independent America</a> discusses the return of the commercial sector to post-Katrina New Orleans, focusing on the contrast between local independent outfits and chain stores. For the most part, the locals came back first and got the economy running again, while the chains stayed away until the situation looked more profitable. The local government then tried to give the chains all sorts of incentive to return, which meant that after all of the difficult and unprofitable work of reviving a community, local business were faced with chain competitors enjoying sweet deals from the government, and often can't now keep up with the challenge.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-13581967876742277382011-08-04T08:02:42.889-04:002011-08-04T08:02:42.889-04:00Evan,
I never suggested that we weren't; the ...Evan,<br /><br />I never suggested that we weren't; the point being that my moral schema - one that doesn't recognize some particularist claims regarding "American jobs" - is different and, well, better than yours. <br /><br />"But leaving a community is also leaving a community..."<br /><br />No kidding; and there is nothing immoral regarding that.<br /><br />"On your logic, why should welfare recipients feel shame in the first place?"<br /><br />Because human beings prefer to be liked obviously; they want their decisions given sanction. See _Theory of Moral Sentiments_.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-68442052930808627182011-08-04T07:54:19.501-04:002011-08-04T07:54:19.501-04:00Dude, it is a global economy; of course they move....<i>Dude, it is a global economy; of course they move. There is no such thing as an "American job" or a "Dutch job" or a "Canadian job" or a "California job" or a "Manitoban job" or whatever unless you're trying to throw some sort of moral schema on worldwide employment. </i><br /><br />Of course we're trading in moral schemata. "Shame" isn't an economic term, after all. My objection to following the cheapest offer across borders isn't its globalized nature or even its economic sense. I recognize that business is business. But leaving a community is also leaving a community, and there are moral implications for that that aren't nullified by the fact that the community member moving away is a business.<br /><br />On your logic, why should welfare recipients feel shame in the first place? Aren't they just capitalizing on the best deal out there? There's no "private sector income" and "public dime" unless you're trying to throw some moral schema on making one's ends meet.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-28976487575411533922011-08-04T07:51:31.492-04:002011-08-04T07:51:31.492-04:00Daniel,
That's wasn't my point. My point...Daniel,<br /><br />That's wasn't my point. My point was that it was totally unrelated to the discussion; I wasn't trying to derail it in other words.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-82590152136299227312011-08-04T07:49:41.034-04:002011-08-04T07:49:41.034-04:00re: "Feel free to delete this post"
Yes...re: <i>"Feel free to delete this post"</i><br /><br />Yes - we're committed enemies of raw milk here at Facts and Other Stubborn Things.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-88747018322959949372011-08-04T07:47:27.707-04:002011-08-04T07:47:27.707-04:00Evan,
This is totally unrelated to this discussio...Evan,<br /><br />This is totally unrelated to this discussion, but I thought you might find it of interest given our previous discussions: http://www.naturalnews.com/033220_Rawesome_Foods_armed_raids.html<br /><br />Feel free to delete this post.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-81513044239837662892011-08-04T07:42:04.515-04:002011-08-04T07:42:04.515-04:00Daniel,
No, I scan you well. As you said:
"...Daniel,<br /><br />No, I scan you well. As you said:<br /><br />"When you react to people on welfare as if that's their intention, though, that's what's infuriating."<br /><br />I don't find it infuriating, I find it appropriate.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-27218242448842664122011-08-04T07:39:42.670-04:002011-08-04T07:39:42.670-04:00Evan,
Dude, it is a global economy; of course the...Evan,<br /><br />Dude, it is a global economy; of course they move. There is no such thing as an "American job" or a "Dutch job" or a "Canadian job" or a "California job" or a "Manitoban job" or whatever unless you're trying to throw some sort of moral schema on worldwide employment. <br /><br />Prateek,<br /><br />We're basically dealing with a clash of worldviews; something like what E.P. Thompson* called the "moral economy" (which was anything but moral IMO) vs. a capitalist economy. <br /><br />*I always recommend his _The Making of the English Working Class_.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-87319311970739325682011-08-04T07:32:03.652-04:002011-08-04T07:32:03.652-04:00Gary -
You're not understanding me. I can'...Gary -<br />You're not understanding me. I can't comment on people's own perspective toward their own use of welfare. That's why I didn't really comment on your own family experience. We all know you have a working class background. Fine.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-78933164308779368662011-08-04T07:31:08.992-04:002011-08-04T07:31:08.992-04:00Well, forget China... the point is that they move ...Well, forget China... the point is that they move out. As it happens, the example I was thinking about when I wrote that was a move to Canada... or I could have talked about credit card companies moving to Delaware. The same point would have been made. I didn't make any claims about the volume of business moving to China.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-70376777406345024212011-08-04T07:25:36.856-04:002011-08-04T07:25:36.856-04:00Daniel,
"When you react to people on welfare...Daniel,<br /><br />"When you react to people on welfare as if that's their intention, though, that's what's infuriating."<br /><br />I'm sorry, but that's how many working class people in my experience react to welfare - and for a number of good reasons, not merely prejudice in other words. Your argument is after all based in large part on this premise ... <br /><br />"Most people that complain vocally about welfare don't know the first thing about it."<br /><br />And it isn't a mistake. People ought to feel a certain amount of shame for taking welfare; end of story. Just like you ought to feel a bit of shame for ending up on your aunt's couch and unemployed. To be blunt, that's part of what gets your ass off the couch.Gary Gunnelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463810435943252898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-68584824833444506732011-08-04T07:11:28.275-04:002011-08-04T07:11:28.275-04:00Prateek -
I'm not sure your link is right - th...Prateek -<br />I'm not sure your link is right - that looks like it's about direct investment. Imports from China are much more substantial than you let on. This isn't a bad thing in my mind, but Evan isn't just making things up.<br /><br />Gary - <br />You're making precisely the mistake that I point out in the post. Of course welfare shouldn't be a vacation hammock. Most people agree with that. When you react to people on welfare as if that's their intention, though, that's what's infuriating. Remember also that Evan is talking about this in the context of the budget debate. In light of all the corporate welfare, people who point to income support programs have very strange priorities indeed.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com