tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post1194236534630790800..comments2024-03-18T06:41:03.841-04:00Comments on Facts & other stubborn things: More on dronesEvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-39138312905663005402012-09-30T08:47:38.813-04:002012-09-30T08:47:38.813-04:00Drones performance as a piece of military technolo...Drones performance as a piece of military technology is pretty much irrelevant to the controversy surrounding their use. You're acting as if the critics of drone strikes are arguing that civilians targeted for summary execution via drone strike should be blown up a different way.teqzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10644136551384385125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-59913251598323562152012-09-28T14:38:37.787-04:002012-09-28T14:38:37.787-04:00Yes, well, that is precisely the ambiguity that la...Yes, well, that is precisely the ambiguity that large-scale terrorist campaigns exploit and which public policy has a hard time grappling with.Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-3307916138678079362012-09-27T21:43:45.641-04:002012-09-27T21:43:45.641-04:00How would you differentiate a war from a police op...How would you differentiate a war from a police operation? There are some cases where we would definitely agree. Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, WWII etc, are very clearly wars. On the other hand, certain things are clearly police operations against terrorists: Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, etc... Clearly, just killing those people would not have been acceptable, even if they were vacationing or living abroad. I can't think of anything better than "I know a war when I see one". But clearly, that doesn't work very well, because you and I see things differently here. I've tried to come up with a good definition, but they all feel like they have gaping holes. Maybe you have something better.PrometheeFeuhttp://prometheefeu.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-20788467787465058682012-09-27T19:30:10.898-04:002012-09-27T19:30:10.898-04:00If the terrorists are in the United States they sh...If the terrorists are in the United States they should be given an opportunity to surrender before they are shot (or bombed) if circumstances permit that to be done without risk to law enforcement or civilians. Those doing the shooting should be under a high, but realistic, standard of diligence: something higher than the standard the New York City police currently applies to shooting suspected Black or Hispanic criminals should be applied. <br /><br />Yemen appears to be at war with domestic insurgents and the United States has the permission of the Yemeni government so Yemen does not cause me any ethical qualms. <br /><br />This is not a police operation in Afghanistan or the tribal area in Pakistan or Yemen or Iraq any more than the Korean war was a police action. So far as I am aware the US has not done Predator strikes inside Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Iran or Syria or Lebanon (although they may have done surveillance).Absalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131268683451462949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-15134516647959935782012-09-27T17:35:37.928-04:002012-09-27T17:35:37.928-04:00I think you're too quick to accept the premise...I think you're too quick to accept the premise that we are talking about a war here. (yes, there are wars going on, and drones used in them, but I am speaking of things like strikes in Yemen for instance) This to a non-negligible number of people feels like a police operation, not a war. And so while killing enemy soldiers is generally accepted, killing criminals without due process (which in the US at least is generally understood as judicial process, Mr. Holder non-withstanding) is not considered acceptable. There is also the question of line drawing that occurs. For instance, there are terrorist groups within the United States. Is the US at war with them too? Would it be acceptable to just bomb them from above, or do we need to try to arrest them, give them a chance to surrender and bring them to trial?PrometheeFeuhttp://prometheefeu.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-60432527822131481802012-09-27T13:19:25.819-04:002012-09-27T13:19:25.819-04:00Right. As I've noted before, pacifism doesn...Right. As I've noted before, pacifism doesn't make sense precisely because whether you take part in the carnage or not is no determinant of the extent of the carnage.<br /><br />When I say war is damnable, I'm not suggesting it's not something that is good to engage in from time to time.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-8579580853815229432012-09-27T13:17:00.563-04:002012-09-27T13:17:00.563-04:00"It's hard for me to figure how else to r..."It's hard for me to figure how else to react to war except to damn it."<br /><br />Some wars are completely justifiable and some are not. The Second World War may be an example where some targeted assassinations (a few dozen Nazis) in the mid 1930s could have saved millions of lives. Absalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131268683451462949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-82405595067323783492012-09-27T12:08:52.480-04:002012-09-27T12:08:52.480-04:00re: "The idea that we did worse in Iraq, in p...re: <i>"The idea that we did worse in Iraq, in particular, seems to be a case of damning with faint praise."</i><br /><br />It's hard for me to figure how else to react to war except to damn it.<br /><br />If faint praise is part of the equation, then war happened to get off easy.<br /><br />As for the rest of your comment - I agree. I'm not proposing a direct relationship. I didn't read that section - I'll try to revisit it.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-82337705891421286902012-09-27T12:08:05.775-04:002012-09-27T12:08:05.775-04:00I generally support drone strikes. It is the diff...I generally support drone strikes. It is the difference between using a sniper and a howitzer when you really only want to kill one man. There would have been a lot to be said for drone strikes (if they had been available) to eliminate bin Laden in the first place rather than invading Afghanistan. <br /><br />And if an American moves to Yemen and declares himself to be at war with the United States he should expect that the US may take his declaration of war seriously. There is no reason why he should be treated better than a Yemeni at war with the US since not only is the American at war, he is also guilty of treason. <br /><br />However, the idea that we are eliminating terrorist havens seems false to me. I see no reason why a terrorist would be better off staging from Afghanistan for an attack on the United States rather than from other countries (including from within the United States itself) that also have remote areas but generally have better travel connections.<br /><br />The other difficulty that I have with understanding the U.S. strategy is the lack of apparent action against the sources of funding for al Quaeda. I thought it was generally accepted that the money for al Quaeda came from various wealthy Saudis and yet the United States does not appear to have sent drones or Seal teams after any of those funders. If I was in charge I would target the sources of money - whether it came from a Saudi Prince or a Pakistani General. I would also target the money distribution channels. Identifiable couriers delivering payroll for the Taliban in Afghanistan would be a high priority target. Absalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131268683451462949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-10878529837493382112012-09-27T12:04:41.831-04:002012-09-27T12:04:41.831-04:00I think looking at the body count as some kind of ...I think looking at the body count as some kind of direct indicator of the rate at which people decide to take violent action against U.S. forces is problematic. In fact, the entire third chapter of that study you linked appears to respond to this view. Even if we acknowledge that the body count is lower than it could be in this or that counterfactual (and here I am trying to imagine explaining this to a Pakistani family that just lost a member), it doesn't address issues like property damage, willingness of civilians or even rescue workers to assist, social coherence in all forms (one example given being education), and the sheer psychological torment of having a giant set of dice up in the sky that could roll your number at any time for no reason. Sometimes you don't need to kill to foment violence.<br /><br />The idea that we did worse in Iraq, in particular, seems to be a case of damning with faint praise.<br /><br />Also, I'm curious to hear how you would address the other issues raised in the article you initially discussed: unaccountable and unrestricted presidential kill list, unprecedented whistleblower prosecutions, etc.Hedlundnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-29110968468121620472012-09-27T11:01:46.454-04:002012-09-27T11:01:46.454-04:00The other thing to remember is that just because w...The other thing to remember is that just because we are creating terrorists doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. Resistance to the Nazis probably created more enthusiastic, nationalist Nazis than there would have been if we just let them have their way.<br /><br />I think the fight against terror networks is a justifiable fight, although the response itself is likely to energize the enemy. So the right response is to seek out the most efficient ways of having that fight, and I think drones and ops are an obvious answer relative to the social devastation of conventional warfare.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-76990089196898098802012-09-27T10:58:59.243-04:002012-09-27T10:58:59.243-04:00I don't know how the numbers work out - that w...I don't know how the numbers work out - that would be fascinating to understand in a more precise way.<br /><br />We are killing civilians - which creates terrorists, and we are deconstructing a terrorist network - which reduces the number of terrorists, and we are finally making terrorist safe havens not so safe - which discourages the creation of terrorists that would have been created.<br /><br />I don't know how that nets out, but we are disrupting networks so much more effectively than we were by occupying Iraqi cities, I'd suspect there's a net reduction. But reasonable minds might disagree on that. We ultimately don't know.<br /><br />My additional point was that I have a hard time taking the concerns seriously about drones, considering the record of the Iraq war or the alternative of leaving. Either of those (the Bush position and the libertarian position, we can summarize) seems like it creates a whole lot more terrorists than addressing the very real terrorist threat and attack on U.S. soil with drones (the Obama position).<br /><br />It's a very crude calculus and crude way of talking about it, but I'd readily admit that there are terrorists today that would not have been terrorists if it weren't for the drone attacks.<br /><br />I'm guessing the problem would be even worse under the libertarian or Republican counterfactual.Daniel Kuehnhttp://www.factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1740670447258719504.post-66711302954353743232012-09-27T10:52:17.746-04:002012-09-27T10:52:17.746-04:00Can you elaborate on what you meant by this?
&quo...Can you elaborate on what you meant by this?<br /><br /><i>" I have a very hard time taking concerns about "creating new terrorists" seriously looking at the drone numbers,"</i><br /><br />I would've thought drones killing civilians 27% of the time would be sufficient to ensure that the terrorist population grows over time. You don't think so?Bob Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001108408649311528noreply@blogger.com